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Permalink Reply by davzway on November 3, 2011 at 9:28am

Scott, there is no point in trying to educate someone who's mind is closed on a subject.   I stand by all statements that I have made on this site.   A few facts distorted with words do not an expert make.

My so-called "ignorance" and lack of expertise happens to include: 

Working as a Range Officer at public and private ranges for over 30-years, and holding SASS Range Officer #1 and Range Officer #2 certificates. ......

Have actively held an FFL firearms license for over 12-years.  ......

Have been Reloading rifle, pistol and shotgun, including blackpowder for over 33-years; using PACT chronographs <Mark I was traded for a Mark IV> for over 20-years to professionally work up loads for over two dozen rifle and handgun calibers from 223 to 416 Rigbey in rifle, and 380acp to 454 Casull in Handgun calibers which also included the 375JDJ and 307JDJ No. 2 rifle cartridges for Contender Hand Cannons pistols.. ..... 

Worked part time at friend's gunsmith shop for over 30-years, a shop who is an armorer for the County Sheriff and most Police Departments in the County , both on the front counter with customers and doing gunsmithing work, including weapon testing and range sighting-in.  Also included certifying as safe Officer's Off Duty weapons (shop was the approved Armorer). . ...... Also have been paid by County Court as a firearm expert for felony case. ......

A hunter for over 50-years, including handgun hunting since 1982 <Handgun Hunters International member was in the low #23xx  range>. ......

NRA Certified Instructor for over 20-years in Home Safety, Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, and Personal Protection categories  Am proud to be an NRA member all my adult life and NRA Life member for  30-years. ......

Have been a competition shooter for over 33-years, including an 8-year period of personally shooting an average of 25,000 rounds per year (reloaded) with another 5,000+rounds reloaded and fired by my two sons, actively shot in - IPSC /  NRA Action Pistol  /  Sporting Clays, and Cowboy Action Shooting <my life long passion for shooting 'cowboy' and the people in SASS em>Life  Member #3106-  aka Hardway Horsley, Having just finished (c) a soon to be published CAS Stage Book with over 120 stages for shooting cowboy matches based on actual historical events.  Also nearly nearly finished is the Western History book from the Horsley Sagas having 101 stories based on American Old West of the 1800's >

My participation in this line of discussion is now over.  Passing messages back and forth is fruitless.   We can agree that we disagree, and let it go at that.  davzway

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Permalink Reply by Scott Schoemann on November 4, 2011 at 8:00pm

The last word:

If what you state is the truth, then you would have the experience to know that hunting is the only way to validate the performance of any ammunition as it provides real world proof of it's performance on living tissue. There is no way to use war time or  police shootings to validate the empirical data due to lack of comparative statistics.

You are the one who has chosen to distort the facts, with statements that "hunting has nothing to do.." If you were in fact such an expert as you claim, I would have your name and you would already have mine and would not be arguing it here. I am listed in the registry...    the most intelligent comment made so far is  that you wish to sep out of the discussion.

You have made statements based on risk of prosecution yet promoted the single practice that IS currently prosecuted in every jurisdiction in the nation, the loading of a single magazine with multiple purpose loading,,, with intent to firsst kill, then shoot through cover to kill. This alone  shows lack of the  proclaimed expertice  that you state. It is unlawful to shoot at anyone seeking cover as the threat to you as a self defense shooter has been removed. It is referred to as a "back shooting" in most courts. As stated  before and now stated for the safety of the readers who have previously listened to your advice, you ARE Dismissed for your pretenious ignorance.  For the others  who are reading this, I Apologize for this being public, however, as you see, when a forum is left open, many people can post anything they want, proclaim it as gospel truth and if someone believes it as such the can open themselves to arrest, and incarceration.  I'ts like saying that X firearm can be safely made into a full auto. It doesnt mean it's legal. The moral is read everything, educatee yourself to understand what is what but believe only .1% of what others  say on the web, without  going out and PERSONALLY verifying  it as truthful.

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Permalink Reply by davzway on November 5, 2011 at 1:38pm

Didn't want to add anything, but your remarks are too personal and too far from the truth to not respond. Good thing about a free society is people need to read all available information, evaluate it and decide for themselves what is real and valid. You take a few facts and distort them so badly that it's sad.

If you can dismiss the research of Marshal and Sarnow so lightly, which is REAL world police shootings that resulted in one shot stops for different ammo, and correlate testing of ammo to relegate what may be effective for said one shot stops,,, then claim 'hunting' is the only real valid means to determine what is good for self defense.. Folks should read M&S book on the subject and then make up their own mind.

Read all my posts. If my students got anything from the Personal Protection Class I teach including the ten pages from Steve Guttenburg,practicing attorney and leading authority on weapons and Florida Statutes; it is Avoid , Avoid Avoid. Anything that will avoid getting into a shooting situation is to be preferred; unless you must protect someone or yourself from imminent and immediate serious bodily harm or death. Pulling or showing a gun puts you in a FELONY category unless you can show justification for doing so, that it was reasonable and necessary for the circumstances for which you pulled the gun.

IF you display a gun for anything other than the dire need to protect yourself or someone else from death or grievous bodily harm, you are a fool. IF you pull the gun for that purpose, it is to put the Bad Guy down as you must have the justification for making the BG dead. If you pull the gun with the idea of shooting the gun from his hand or wounding you are a fool. Pulling a gun is self defense is very serious business that can affect your life for years. The tactics of being in a shooting situation is an entire subject of it's own, implying you would stand in the open shooting is unlikely, seeking cover is preferred if possible and cover if effective. I have been shot at,, four BG's in a car, trying to force my car from the road, firing two shots to prove their point... did I have a gun, yes. Was I justified in shooting back, also yes. Did I shoot, no. It hadn't reached that point. Did a fast 180, returned to closest town and parked in shopping center parking lot under a street light. Did the BG come back, Yes. But they decided not to engage in a well lit parking lot. I avoided a shooting situation. Could go on with other situations, but there's no point, as this should have already made the point. If you have to shoot, you'd better have the justification for killing the BG or you shouldn't have been shooting or pulling the gun in the first place.

Taking my words and reworking them to present a false picture doesn't make you words true. You may be in a registry in whatever world you work in, that's great as I guess being in a registry is credentials of a sorts. . From past experience I have noticed that folks debating without facts, tend to make personal and insulting attacking remarks as an attempt to cover their lack of facts in the discussion. Claiming Winchester's Black Talon's were teflon coated and pulled because they were a 'cop killer' ammo is just one of the fallacies in your remarks.

Unless something specific, I really wouldn't want to waste my time further. Your last half dozen sentences are covered in my first paragraph.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Schoemann on November 7, 2011 at 3:34am

Son cut the bullshit. You are getting rediculous, You have been twisting the facts spreading nonsense and ignoring fact and truth from the first comment you made. You are not even man enough to use your given name. It is YOU that is wasting everyones time.  You intermix philosophy of how not to get prosecuted with ways to guarantee prosecution. It's time to grow up and face facts. While you are making up your stories there are those of us who are working in the real world. I have no doubts that you will be coming back with more fallacies and lies.  And next time you try to spread bullshit I suggest you find out WHO you are talking to... I was one of Winchesters professional witnesses on  five different lawsuits against them on the use of talons in killing peace officers you moron.

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Permalink Reply by davzway on November 7, 2011 at 11:51am

Personal attack is what you seem to know best.  Never said a Black Talon couldn't be used to kill police officers, I only stood on the fact that the 'black' in Black Talon was not TEFLON coated.   TEFLON coated has been relegated to POLICE issue only long before the Bernie Getz shooting five black people in NY.    You speak in generalities then resort to personal attack.  There is nothing in my remarks on what to do or not to do that isn't repeating what the leading attorney on firearms in Florida and how to avoid issues with their use.  If it's different in any other state, it is outside my discussion.  I will stoop to your level just this once and I am gone from this thread.   My dad had an expression which cover's this, though it's a bit crude.  Don't try to shit on the old turd because the turd knows better.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Gomez on November 7, 2011 at 12:20pm

davzway said:

Personal attack is what you seem to know best.  Never said a Black Talon couldn't be used to kill police officers, I only stood on the fact that the 'black' in Black Talon was not TEFLON coated.   TEFLON coated has been relegated to POLICE issue only long before the Bernie Getz shooting five black people in NY.    You speak in generalities then resort to personal attack.  There is nothing in my remarks on what to do or not to do that isn't repeating what the leading attorney on firearms in Florida and how to avoid issues with their use.  If it's different in any other state, it is outside my discussion.  I will stoop to your level just this once and I am gone from this thread.   My dad had an expression which cover's this, though it's a bit crude.  Don't try to shit on the old turd because the turd knows better.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Gomez on November 7, 2011 at 12:28pm

I know there is an ongoing argument you are trying to work out but all I would like to know is if anybody has any suggestions on brands for 9mm+p or+p+. I usually use Speer Gold Dot and I am happy with it. But I am open to trying new ammo. CorBon is also a winner with me. Have you heard or had experience with Speers Gold Dot for short barrel? I would like to hear others points of view, not rumors but experience and factual performance. Anybody have any input.

Anthony Gomez said:

davzway said:

Personal attack is what you seem to know best.  Never said a Black Talon couldn't be used to kill police officers, I only stood on the fact that the 'black' in Black Talon was not TEFLON coated.   TEFLON coated has been relegated to POLICE issue only long before the Bernie Getz shooting five black people in NY.    You speak in generalities then resort to personal attack.  There is nothing in my remarks on what to do or not to do that isn't repeating what the leading attorney on firearms in Florida and how to avoid issues with their use.  If it's different in any other state, it is outside my discussion.  I will stoop to your level just this once and I am gone from this thread.   My dad had an expression which cover's this, though it's a bit crude.  Don't try to shit on the old turd because the turd knows better.

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Permalink Reply by davzway on November 7, 2011 at 1:59pm

Anthony,, would be hard to beat the Gold Dot, as mentioned I was at a day long seminar when Speer factory was in Clearwater Florida doing a lot of testing of their bullets against other brands, firing through different mediums, done at Clearwater Firearms.  It was not long after the Gold Dot ammo was first introduced and they were trying to get the local SO and PD's to go approve their ammo.   If memory serves the testing was done using 4" S&W auto, maybe one 3-1/2" compact, and the Gold Dot did well. < many hollow points don't expand at handgun velocities and some plug up with the medium being fired through <clothing, drywall, etc> and others, except for some flattening, act like ball ammo in penetration <and corresponding poor size of the wound cavity>  Corbon is excellent, usually providing the hottest. highest velocity you can attain unless you have some of the old SuperVel ammo.< even reloading it is hard to achieve greater velocities/ performance than factory, as factory often uses proprietary powder to achieve their performance>  Check if done with a test barrel rather than an actual gun, which is where having a chronograph to test ammo in your gun is beneficial to knowing exactly what you have.    Another ammo which performs well and offers lower cost is Magtech which offers a large hollow point design somewhat similar to Remington Golden Saber. 

<With any of the choices, make sure the ammo functions in your pistol, 100% of the time.  If carrying Glaser or Magsafe, fire at least six rounds, including some that are 2nd and farther down in the magazine to ensure their are no feeding issues- reason personally why I would not carry MagSafe in other than as the first round in the barrel, never in the magazine due to feeding issues with the hp unless you test it repeatedly in your gun without a malfunction.  Glaser's don't have that problem due to the round ball configuration.  <Note: older, original Glaser have rounded Flat nose which while not as difficult feeding as MagSafe, is not anywhere as good as the current issue Glaser with a round nose.>

None would compare to using MagSafe or Glaser Safety Slugs <currently by Corbon>.  MagSafe has large birdshot pellet size that's bound in an epoxy binder, where the Glaser (blue nose) is a thin copper hollow bullet filled with small #12 birdshot with a plastic cap nose to keep the pellets in the slug and Glaser with silver color nose is larger birdshot than what is in the blue <arrived after MagSafe and always believed it was Glaser's response to their claims of offering 'necessary additional penetration to perform better.>    Testing I've done <fired nearly a 100 total between Glaser's and MagSafe, expensive testing>  with 9mm Glaser <blue cap> shows the party shot isn't getting up. < this was verified by a man in county coroners office who tested on a John Doe and claimed a man shot with Glaser at ER hospital door wouldn't live,,  a long story by itself.  This coroner's interest stemmed from not following police procedure which got his throat cut by a dead person's relative at a crime scene, 17 stitches later he lived but it was a close call and he became real serious advocate in ccw and one shot stops for ammo.  Safety slugs DO carry legal implications as there are NO sporting purposes, having only one function-killing. <Police Dept. I am aware of forbid the use of Safety Slugs, even off-duty weapons, due to this issue and possible public reaction to it's use.>  Asking about Glaser Safety Slugs with Steve Guttenburg, PA, a lawyer who's the leading <that I know of which includes his book on the subject>  legal authority in Florida on the use of weapons vs. Florida Law.  His response was "You must have clear justification for killing a BG,  If so, the ammo used won't matter in the end"   He had no issues with Glaser Safety as it does have justification from having NO penetration, or hitting a hard surface and going elsewhere to hurt an innocent party, etc <i.e. you don't want a stray slug going through walls in your home and hitting your children or a family member in another room>   Of coarse the way to be completely free of this argument is not to use Glaser ammo, it's a personal choice issue.  Reloaded ammo is different and should NEVER be used in a personal protection weapon as the "not happy with regular factory ammo to kill someone, you had to make your own special 'kill-em ammo line of questioning by a DA at your trial <again the issue of total justification for shooting / killing must be there in first place or you have a problem>

Using All Glaser Safety Slugs is not good as there is NO penetration other than going through heavy clothing, and you might find yourself in a situation where you need the penetration. .

With your list, Gold Dots, CorBon, MagTech, and Golden Saber are all good choices, providing they function 100% in your weapon.   Your own choice, understanding legal issues, of whether to add  Glaser Safety or MagSafe ammo to your list.    davzway

ps: I use my real photo.  My real name is David Willis for those who place importance on such matters.  I've never done anything to bring shame on the family name.   Or say anything I don't believe as true and would be happy to debate, not ever.  The problem with saying anything at all, is you need to be careful that you are accurate, as good intentions when wrong, help no one at all and can be harmful.    Have worked as expert witness in Civil Cases on Construction issues <up to $9 million with an upset number of $17 million case for two condo bldg's> since 1986 as Certified General Contractor/ Certified Roofing Contractor; and could tell of cases where a party did something honestly believing he was right- yet was so wrong - which resulted in some very costly building problems.    That's why I've said a rational thinking adult should gather all the information he can, from all the sources he can find, determine in his own mind what is true and what is not, and make his own Informed decision.   That's why you see more information backing my remarks than just saying, use ammo #1-#2 and #3, without explanation.  It draws fire as you can see from this blog.  Please make up your own mind, particularly when subject is ammo for self defense.  Certainly would take everything you read, and take it with a grain of salt..  This site is a great place to start when gathering the info. ..   
Anthony Gomez said:

I know there is an ongoing argument you are trying to work out but all I would like to know is if anybody has any suggestions on brands for 9mm+p or+p+. I usually use Speer Gold Dot and I am happy with it. But I am open to trying new ammo. CorBon is also a winner with me. Have you heard or had experience with Speers Gold Dot for short barrel? I would like to hear others points of view, not rumors but experience and factual performance. Anybody have any input.

Anthony Gomez said:

davzway said:

Personal attack is what you seem to know best.  Never said a Black Talon couldn't be used to kill police officers, I only stood on the fact that the 'black' in Black Talon was not TEFLON coated.   TEFLON coated has been relegated to POLICE issue only long before the Bernie Getz shooting five black people in NY.    You speak in generalities then resort to personal attack.  There is nothing in my remarks on what to do or not to do that isn't repeating what the leading attorney on firearms in Florida and how to avoid issues with their use.  If it's different in any other state, it is outside my discussion.  I will stoop to your level just this once and I am gone from this thread.   My dad had an expression which cover's this, though it's a bit crude.  Don't try to shit on the old turd because the turd knows better.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Gomez on November 11, 2011 at 5:29pm

 Thanks for the input. It seems like were on the same page I just recently purchased some Magtech ammo. I had good results with it as well. I only fired 40 rounds but had no problems. I have a Kahr K9 backup gun that I am feeding this to and with all 3 brands discussed have yet to have any failure whatsoever. As a matter of fact I have yet to have a failure of any kind even with practice ammo.I have owned it for over 4 years. I have owned 5 or 6 others since and they have been sold or traded so I would have to say it is one of my favorite pistols I have ever owned. Back to 9mm +p ammo. I am just interested in what will give me the best performance and stopping power from a 3.5 inch barrel. This is not a Kahr advertisement. Just my humble opinion.

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Permalink Reply by davzway on November 12, 2011 at 2:16pm

 

Anthony,  Kahr makes a fine pistol,, have owned a few myself and a friend carries one.  There are many good choices now for self defense ammo that wasn't here 20yrs. ago.   The issue for functioning is partly the hollow point <bullet shape and design> and whether your particular pistol has a barrel throated to accept or feed the particular hollow point design.  At Cole's gunsmith shop, we often modified a barrel and feed ramp to accept HP bullets if there are feeding functioning issues.  The BIG problem is no manufacturer can test their pistols with Every type of ammo that you can find to buy <setting aside the issue of mfgr tolerances and that not all parts are exactly the same/ fit the same, etc. > using a 9mm semi-auto pistol as an example..   There is a huge variation from some hyper velocity 90gr bullets to a more sedate 147gr slug that isn't breaking a 1,000fps.  Your particular pistol's recoil springs may function with one bullet weight/velocity and not another. 

Example.  Had a lady student with two identical (new) S&W 9mm pistols (639 If memory serves) .   One was for carry and the other was strictly to be a house pistol.   She had some very good 115gr HP ammo that likely was going over 1,200fps,   the ammo worked fine in Pistol #1 and you wouldn't get a third shot fired from Pistol #2, .. if that many.  She wasn't limp wristing or doing anything wrong when shooting.  I tried the gun with the same results, classic stove pipe jamb  Tried different magazines (four),  Tried another brands of ammo.   Pistol #2 flat refused to shoot more than two rounds. After the class on the same day,  we returned to Coles and I took Pistol #2  apart.  Examined #2 thoroughly and found nothing visibly wrong.  <Then took apart pistol #1 for comparison, ..  and there were no visible differences, even counted the coils on the recoil springs, along with miking the wire for differences in wire thickness ,, and found none withing 0.0001  > 

She did not want to return the pistol to S&W under warranty and lose it's use for a month or longer <S&W would  have corrected the problem under warranty at no charge.  We ordered another factory spring for her <S&W didn't charge us after we explained circumstances> and as it turned out she ended up with a spare recoil spring for future use <springs don't last forever and with enough rounds <think in terms of 5,000 rounds, opinions on round count is a chevy/ford type of question> they usually should be replaced.    Again, issue is 100% reliability, .... not squeezing out the box of ammo from a recoil spring. 

To fix Pistol #2, .. I ended up removing almost three coils off the factory recoil spring, cutting a half coil at a time, before Pistol #2 was reliable.    With three coils off the recoil spring of Pistol #2, my student now had two pistols that worked.<It is usually not good to cut down a spring more than one coil from a recoil spring, depending on gun/caliber  ...it may change timing , etc., etc.  Test fired into bullet trap at Coles using all four mags and both types of ammo she had purchased (practice and carry, making sure it functioned. .  < Before the pistol left the gunsmith shop, also polished the slide bearing surface of the frame's rail to smooth the slide/frame fit>    It took less than an hour, and since she was a customer of Coles <Coles stand's behind everything sold, new and used, advantage of buying from local gunsmith rather than internet>  , as well as my ccw student, the lady wasn't charged for the minor 'repair'.  .   Advised her that she should shoot  at least another 200 rounds to break in the pistol before carrying for self defense.

MORAL of the long reply .. you must fire sufficient number of rounds of ammo in the semi-auto pistol you are going to carry to ensure it functions 100%.  Just because you have a 9mm pistol and 9mm ammo, doesn't mean the two products will make nice together.   This isn't an issue with revolvers.

 

PS:  Magtech was her practice ammo and I don't remember what she used for carry <but it was in the Corbon, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, etc family of carry ammo>

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